Let me say more on this subject. First, studio players DO NOT play with the emotion that live players do. I am a studio musician in Nashville as well as a touring player with different artist. In Nashville there is all kinda of music, country, rock, pop, jazz, SG, CCM, you name it. None of those groups use tracks nearly as much as SG.
Someone was right by saying SG is losing ground due to the fact that live tracks rule over live bands. I have been thinking and talking to some people in the music industry and we agree that SG is one genre of music that clearly DOES NOT have anyone that is going beyond the limits, or pushing the envelope. No one is paving new way or going to the edge and attempting to make sure that SG will live on. You can turn on the radio and hear SG and in most cases can not tell who it is because they all play the same music with the same boring song structure. There is one group that is however doing things that are pushing the envelope by playing more country, and have a more contemporary show with a live band. but I wont name them due to some of you may get the wrong opinion about them. But I would consider them as i would the Gathers not really apart of the SG world.
I hate to hear someone say “musicians should not jump around and get into the music and “groove it”. Jumping on stage is only distracting when you come to a concert and critique it and not get anything out of it. SG needs a change. It needs new people, new musicians and singers who will make the music come alive. Jumping around of stage and enjoying the music it excly what SG needs. and byt the way what if they musicians jumping around where worshiping. I have never seen anyone saved at a SG concert. i have seen hundreds at DC talk, Third day, and many other main stream rock, or pop concerts. they apparently know how to get the “message” across with a live band that jumps around of stage.Wen you go to church you go to worship and be lead to worship. when you go to a concert you go to be entertained. when you say “Bands like the Kingdom Heirs and the Kingsmen are NOT the types of bands that I am talking about” who are you talking about. Dion you must go to a show to see a boring performance and not appreciate where SG started. you think back in the day everyone carried a instant replay or Mini Disc? No live music and the creativity of live bands made it what it was back then.
A poll of Singing News fans of 60% isnt saying much. Like I said all other music genres don’t use live tracks, and the Dog and Pony show was enough said. It does make SG groups look talentless, and they do all need a gimmick or something because they are all the same. If your apart of the SG industry wouldn’t you want people pushing the boundaries and making your industry larger.
({ “God speaks through all different kinds of art forms and musical styles and musical forms†-bill gather
Did I miss something? Did somebody say He didn’t? )} yeah Dion said you cant get the message across with a live band that is truly worshiping and enjoying what they do. only singers with a fake band can…..
Honestly if you don’t play a instrument and understand they music. (sitting on the 3rd row at a show and riding a bus with a group for a weekend does not help you any… I call those people diesel sniffers!!) then you need to leave the music, the concert, and shows, and how they play and sing to the professionals…
Let me say more on this subject. First, studio players DO NOT play with the emotion that live players do. I am a studio musician in Nashville as well as a touring player with different artist. In Nashville there is all kinda of music, country, rock, pop, jazz, SG, CCM, you name it. None of those groups use tracks nearly as much as SG.
I hate to hear someone say “musicians should not jump around and get into the music and “groove it”. Jumping on stage is only distracting when you come to a concert and critique it and not get anything out of it. SG needs a change. It needs new people, new musicians and singers who will make the music come alive. Jumping around of stage and enjoying the music it excly what SG needs. and byt the way what if they musicians jumping around where worshiping. I have never seen anyone saved at a SG concert. i have seen hundreds at DC talk, Third day, and many other main stream rock, or pop concerts. they apparently know how to get the “message” across with a live band that jumps around of stage.Wen you go to church you go to worship and be lead to worship. when you go to a concert you go to be entertained. when you say “Bands like the Kingdom Heirs and the Kingsmen are NOT the types of bands that I am talking about” who are you talking about. Dion you must go to a show to see a boring performance and not appreciate where SG started. you think back in the day everyone carried a instant replay or Mini Disc? No live music and the creativity of live bands made it what it was back then.
A poll of Singing News fans of 60% isnt saying much. Like I said all other music genres don’t use live tracks, and the Dog and Pony show was enough said. It does make SG groups look talentless, and they do all need a gimmick or something because they are all the same. If your apart of the SG industry wouldn’t you want people pushing the boundaries and making your industry larger.
({ “God speaks through all different kinds of art forms and musical styles and musical forms†-bill gather
Did I miss something? Did somebody say He didn’t? )} yeah Dion said you cant get the message across with a live band that is truly worshiping and enjoying what they do. only singers with a fake band can…..
Honestly if you don’t play a instrument and understand they music. (sitting on the 3rd row at a show and riding a bus with a group for a weekend does not help you any… I call those people diesel sniffers!!) then you need to leave the music, the concert, and shows, and how they play and sing to the professionals…
Wow, where do I start? Shame on you if you are not playing with the same intensity on a studio session that you are on stage. I do it as a singer, why wouldn’t you as a musician.
Again, the only ones who notice that it is live or memorex are the musicians. The fans and concert attenders do not care. They are there to hear the singers sing.
Of course we want to see this genre move forward, and part of moving forward is moving up to the 21st century, when where such things as tracks are available when quality musicians are not to be found, or can’t be afforded.
I never go to a concert to see a boring show. I always expect the singers to be full of energy and exciting. I do not go to see musicians play instruments. They are to be accompaniment not distractions. I’m sorry, but when artists are jumping up and down, it is distracting, whether they are the singers or the musicians.
It drives me crazy when I see members of praise teams start jumping up and down.
Now let’s look at a different point. In today’s technology, you no longer have the different feel of each instrument coming from it’s own amp. Today, all the instruments are run through the house system, making them no more or less effective than tracks. You cannot compare SGM with other forms of music. Other forms of music are instrument driven. Usually it’s just a lead singer, or the voices are not that important to the songs. With SGM, the vocals are predominant. SGM is built on close harmony. Vocal quality is very important. The music is supposed to be subdued, hence the word accompaniment. When a pianist accompanies a singer, they do not play runs that take away from the vocals, they don’t play so loud that the vocals cannot be heard, and they don’t do all kinds of gymnastics on the keyboard to take the attention away from the singer. On the other hand, vocal quality is not important in instrument driven music. I think that it is clear that you do not understand SGM. You say that you have never seen anyone saved at a SG concert, yet I’ve seen plenty, but I’ve never seen any saved at any CCM concerts I’ve been to. I guess that makes us even.
Again, if you can afford the musicians and they are quality, and they know their place in the program, I’m all for live music. In the mean time. the audience is interested in seeing the singers be exciting, whether they use live musicians or tracks. Are there some benefits of having a live band? Sure, like being able to try a song that has been requested, but I’ve seen some train wrecks when that is tried.
Are there benefits to using tracks? Sure. They aren’t perfect and I’ve seen people try to use them who shouldn’t. However, live music is not the downfall of SGM.
Once again you have made comments that truly make no sense. As a professional studio musician i understand how to play in the studio and how to play live on stage. You of course seem to not understand how this works. In the studio, a player must be very articulate with what is being played and it must be very contained. On stage you want the music to breathe and have feeling, energy, dynamics. All of this can be done with “tracks” but is it not at all believable and does not carry the same type of feel. When playing with a live band you can vamp songs or parts of the show. I understand that SGM is a very bored genre and most of its listeners don’t know much or understand “real” music. I do get a feeling that you are just another old SG listener who believes things should be bland and remain the same. I don’t knock you for that, i respect your opinion. but on a form site we are all entitled to one. SGM is vocal driven, so is country, and many other type of music. there is really only a hand full of GSM artist who can truly have a great and tight vocal sound. I also get the feeling you have saw a band that was probably really good at what they did, but they pushed the envelope and are doing things not done before in this industry and like history has proved over and over again, those people will change music for the better. I will name a few artist for you: Buddy Holly, Elvis, Beatles, BB King, Jerry Lee Lewis, Ray Charles, and many more who when they came out on the scene many years ago people like you said the same thing. “they jump around, play loud, and groove.. they are too into the music” well wouldn’t you know that they all would become legends. Some of them also made Gospel records and played those songs live. You along with many other people were too set in their old ways and didn’t understand or realize music was changing for the better. So i am glad there is people who don’t like what is being done. Maybe more groups will have bands and they will jump around and make the music come alive, and push all these other groups that fake their shows with tracks and hidden vocals with the tracks. if they all had live bands they vocals would be up front and you would see how bad they really are.
Thanks for letting History repeat its self…..look out SGM its time for a change…...
Wow, where do I start? Shame on you if you are not playing with the same intensity on a studio session that you are on stage. I do it as a singer, why wouldn’t you as a musician.
Again, the only ones who notice that it is live or memorex are the musicians. The fans and concert attenders do not care. They are there to hear the singers sing.
Of course we want to see this genre move forward, and part of moving forward is moving up to the 21st century, when where such things as tracks are available when quality musicians are not to be found, or can’t be afforded.
I never go to a concert to see a boring show. I always expect the singers to be full of energy and exciting. I do not go to see musicians play instruments. They are to be accompaniment not distractions. I’m sorry, but when artists are jumping up and down, it is distracting, whether they are the singers or the musicians.
It drives me crazy when I see members of praise teams start jumping up and down.
Now let’s look at a different point. In today’s technology, you no longer have the different feel of each instrument coming from it’s own amp. Today, all the instruments are run through the house system, making them no more or less effective than tracks. You cannot compare SGM with other forms of music. Other forms of music are instrument driven. Usually it’s just a lead singer, or the voices are not that important to the songs. With SGM, the vocals are predominant. SGM is built on close harmony. Vocal quality is very important. The music is supposed to be subdued, hence the word accompaniment. When a pianist accompanies a singer, they do not play runs that take away from the vocals, they don’t play so loud that the vocals cannot be heard, and they don’t do all kinds of gymnastics on the keyboard to take the attention away from the singer. On the other hand, vocal quality is not important in instrument driven music. I think that it is clear that you do not understand SGM. You say that you have never seen anyone saved at a SG concert, yet I’ve seen plenty, but I’ve never seen any saved at any CCM concerts I’ve been to. I guess that makes us even.
Again, if you can afford the musicians and they are quality, and they know their place in the program, I’m all for live music. In the mean time. the audience is interested in seeing the singers be exciting, whether they use live musicians or tracks. Are there some benefits of having a live band? Sure, like being able to try a song that has been requested, but I’ve seen some train wrecks when that is tried.
Are there benefits to using tracks? Sure. They aren’t perfect and I’ve seen people try to use them who shouldn’t. However, live music is not the downfall of SGM.
Deon, I’ll tell you like you told me. You are wrong. Live bands add to the whole musical experience. If tracks were the rage, all other genres would use them without live players. They don’t. SG had live bands during its prime. Since they’ve disappeared, the genre has lost influence. Absence of live bands is one major factor.
Our audience has turned into 60+ people who are hesitant to spend money on concerts. They want love offerning shows or at the most $10 tickets with 3 major groups. Sure, they’ve learned to compromise. Keep the cost down, and they’ll enjoy the tracks just fine.
Deon,
I must disagree with you. The very fact that you have a problem with live bands playing with southern gospel bands is absurd. I loved your argument using the words “professional” and “live,” is parenthesis - very sarcastic and very demeaning, to people trying to reach the world for the gospel. The same goal you have no doubt. But you think you are being bold, trying to conserve the message of the gospel and not ruin it with distracting musicians. “Praise Him for his surpassing greatness, Praise Him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise Him with the harp and lyre, praise Him with tambourine and dancing, praise Him with the clash of cymbals.” Psalm 150. These live bands add to the praise of Christ, not take away. You might say some of these bands aren’t praising the Lord, they are just playing. I would love to see your evidence for this, for you cannot know a man’s heart. But I apologize if that is not your thought, and perhaps putting words in your mouth. The beautiful thing about the gospel is it meets people where they are. If someone is distracted by another praising the Lord at a gospel concert, they should stop and look around. If they are not distracted by expensive rhinestone outfits, lights, corny smiles, and other gimmicks I have seen every southern gospel group use, then the band should be the least of their worries. Am I saying any of these “gimmicks” are wrong, no not really. I mean maybe a $3,000 dollar suit and trying to convince people that God is love,while saying give me more money; but that is another story. But your argument is that tracks are better than a live band because it allows the listener to focus on the gospel, no distractions. I enjoy a good southern gospel band as much as the next guy, but can I really be honest with you. First, this is an industry mainly based on nurturing the hearts of already converted believers. There is nothing wrong with that. But can’t we worship collectively, musicians, singers, and dancers. As we have already seen by psalms up there, that we can praise the lord with dancing, and crashing of cymbals. Is there a degree of order that needs to upheld, yes. We can’t just run around yelling and dancing all over the church. We see Paul in the New Testament talk about orderly worship. Tracks while containing music people have recorded, are still at the heart of the matter tracks, a machine, a bit of digital sound. Live bands are real people adding flavor to the worship. Secondly, the other part of this industry is dedicated to reaching the world for Christ, as it should be our mission. Ministry is a huge goal of the church, if not the goal. So I understand your concern, in thinking we need not distract with a live band. But let me tell you Christ reaches people through any means necessary. If you are telling me an instrument never moved anyone, ever reached anyone, or portrayed the message of Christ, then I must disagree. And I am not talking about an instrument on a track. There is something special about live music that cannot be replicated through tracks. And friend let me tell you if we keep music from evolving, it will die. But… If you want the message of Christ to die with southern gospel music, stay set in your ways criticizing people, keeping a narrow mind on worship, and creating unnecessary rules like the pharisees. Is your concern reaching people, or keeping southern gospel music as is. Now friend I do not mean to offend you. And I am not calling you against the gospel. But let Christ work, don’t criticize the work of the Lord
Once again you have made comments that truly make no sense. As a professional studio musician i understand how to play in the studio and how to play live on stage. You of course seem to not understand how this works. In the studio, a player must be very articulate with what is being played and it must be very contained. On stage you want the music to breathe and have feeling, energy, dynamics. All of this can be done with “tracks” but is it not at all believable and does not carry the same type of feel. When playing with a live band you can vamp songs or parts of the show. I understand that SGM is a very bored genre and most of its listeners don’t know much or understand “real” music. I do get a feeling that you are just another old SG listener who believes things should be bland and remain the same. I don’t knock you for that, i respect your opinion. but on a form site we are all entitled to one. SGM is vocal driven, so is country, and many other type of music. there is really only a hand full of GSM artist who can truly have a great and tight vocal sound. I also get the feeling you have saw a band that was probably really good at what they did, but they pushed the envelope and are doing things not done before in this industry and like history has proved over and over again, those people will change music for the better. I will name a few artist for you: Buddy Holly, Elvis, Beatles, BB King, Jerry Lee Lewis, Ray Charles, and many more who when they came out on the scene many years ago people like you said the same thing. “they jump around, play loud, and groove.. they are too into the music” well wouldn’t you know that they all would become legends. Some of them also made Gospel records and played those songs live. You along with many other people were too set in their old ways and didn’t understand or realize music was changing for the better. So i am glad there is people who don’t like what is being done. Maybe more groups will have bands and they will jump around and make the music come alive, and push all these other groups that fake their shows with tracks and hidden vocals with the tracks. if they all had live bands they vocals would be up front and you would see how bad they really are.
Thanks for letting History repeat its self…..look out SGM its time for a change…...
Oh, please, I am no stranger to the studio, musicians aren’t the only ones who frequent studios. What is apparent is that you are insulting the SGM fans. There is nothing bland about the Booth Brothers, Karen Peck and New River, the Dover Brothers, Gold City, Three Bridges, the Hoppers, and the list can go on and on. YOU are showing that you have no concept of SGM. When you call SGM concerts fake shows, you truly show that you are a frustrated musician and that puts all of your posts in the proper perception. Envelopes are being pushed in SGM, just because they aren’t being pushed the way a frustrated musician would want them to be pushed, doesn’t mean that they are not being pushed. I learned a long time ago that this genre will grow or die if we give the FANS what they want, not the musicians or even the singers.
Artists can jump around all they want when they are doing rock and roll, and by BTW, you are totally missing what I am talking about when I am saying jumping up and down. Ernie Haase and Signature Sound move all over the stage and I love it, but I am seeing musicians now just jumping straight up and down, aping the motions that they see in Rock bands. I love excitement on stage, but not what I am seeing in the bands of today. Of course when I did give examples of very good bands in SGM, you didn’t seem to approve of them.
I am the farthest from a frustrated musician. I have a very fruitful career playing and touring. I have nothing to be frustrated about. I am not trying to get a job in a band to take the place of tracks that is not my argument. My argument is that you make no sense and you have nothing to stand on when debating. you said “I learned a long time ago that this genre will grow or die if we give the FANS what they want, not the musicians or even the singers” With out the musicians, the fans wont have anything. and in most cases (do another poll to find out) if you don’t get moving and allowing things to change the fan will die of old age. explain to me how the envelope is being pushed? i really want to know. don’t say by tracking more stacked vocals, and write new songs that sound all the same…. all those groups you names, i have heard them and in fact shared the stage with some. and they all sound THE SAME!!!
Whitmanm said it best. whether you like it or not Musicians will and always will rule over tracks and put on a show that CAN NOT be replicated with tracks. Jumping around on stage is perfect for everyone, musician, singer, whatever. But hey you are the type of guy who has to find something to grip about. I know you more than you know…I have spend time with you before. Till then I will continue to make great music, and if i want to jump around of stage i will, and so will all the guys i work with.
the bands you mentioned are like most other bands doing the same ol, stuff in the same ol siuts, on the same ol stage. why not change things up a bit. jump around, and enjoy yourself. your playing music for a living…. what more could you ask for.
Enough said by me and Whitmanm…. Deon, you have made a fool of yourself.
Deon,
I must disagree with you. The very fact that you have a problem with live bands playing with southern gospel bands is absurd. I loved your argument using the words “professional” and “live,” is parenthesis - very sarcastic and very demeaning, to people trying to reach the world for the gospel. The same goal you have no doubt. But you think you are being bold, trying to conserve the message of the gospel and not ruin it with distracting musicians. “Praise Him for his surpassing greatness, Praise Him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise Him with the harp and lyre, praise Him with tambourine and dancing, praise Him with the clash of cymbals.” Psalm 150. These live bands add to the praise of Christ, not take away. You might say some of these bands aren’t praising the Lord, they are just playing. I would love to see your evidence for this, for you cannot know a man’s heart. But I apologize if that is not your thought, and perhaps putting words in your mouth. The beautiful thing about the gospel is it meets people where they are. If someone is distracted by another praising the Lord at a gospel concert, they should stop and look around. If they are not distracted by expensive rhinestone outfits, lights, corny smiles, and other gimmicks I have seen every southern gospel group use, then the band should be the least of their worries. Am I saying any of these “gimmicks” are wrong, no not really. I mean maybe a $3,000 dollar suit and trying to convince people that God is love,while saying give me more money; but that is another story. But your argument is that tracks are better than a live band because it allows the listener to focus on the gospel, no distractions. I enjoy a good southern gospel band as much as the next guy, but can I really be honest with you. First, this is an industry mainly based on nurturing the hearts of already converted believers. There is nothing wrong with that. But can’t we worship collectively, musicians, singers, and dancers. As we have already seen by psalms up there, that we can praise the lord with dancing, and crashing of cymbals. Is there a degree of order that needs to upheld, yes. We can’t just run around yelling and dancing all over the church. We see Paul in the New Testament talk about orderly worship. Tracks while containing music people have recorded, are still at the heart of the matter tracks, a machine, a bit of digital sound. Live bands are real people adding flavor to the worship. Secondly, the other part of this industry is dedicated to reaching the world for Christ, as it should be our mission. Ministry is a huge goal of the church, if not the goal. So I understand your concern, in thinking we need not distract with a live band. But let me tell you Christ reaches people through any means necessary. If you are telling me an instrument never moved anyone, ever reached anyone, or portrayed the message of Christ, then I must disagree. And I am not talking about an instrument on a track. There is something special about live music that cannot be replicated through tracks. And friend let me tell you if we keep music from evolving, it will die. But… If you want the message of Christ to die with southern gospel music, stay set in your ways criticizing people, keeping a narrow mind on worship, and creating unnecessary rules like the pharisees. Is your concern reaching people, or keeping southern gospel music as is. Now friend I do not mean to offend you. And I am not calling you against the gospel. But let Christ work, don’t criticize the work of the Lord
You need to go back and reread my posts. I have NEVER said that I dislike bands. I dislike the bands today that are jumping all over the place and reacting like rock bands. I have never said that tracks are BETTER than bands. My contention is that there is no difference to the average fan attending a SG concert.
I find it amusing that you accuse me of having a narrow mind, when across the industry I am known for being progressive in my thinking. Of course when people misquote me, like you have here, I can see where you get the wrong idea. You say that tracks are just a machine with digital sounds, but in reality, that what instruments are, just empty vessels, the same vessels that put the same music on the track that is used.
Again, with today’s technology and all the instruments running through the sound system, there is no difference between the sound of tracks and live musicians. Are you going to seriously tell me that you go to concert, not to hear the singing, but to hear the bands? I just don’t believe that. I go to SG concerts to hear the SINGING. I buy SG CDs to hear the singing. The bands are to be accompaniment, not a distraction.
Lastly, just because I don’t like what I have been seeing in some bands today, does not mean that I am criticizing the work of the Lord. That is a real stretch. If I felt that these band members were worshiping God with their jumping antics, I would think differently, but that is not what’s coming across at all to me.
I am the farthest from a frustrated musician. I have a very fruitful career playing and touring. I have nothing to be frustrated about. I am not trying to get a job in a band to take the place of tracks that is not my argument. My argument is that you make no sense and you have nothing to stand on when debating. you said “I learned a long time ago that this genre will grow or die if we give the FANS what they want, not the musicians or even the singers” With out the musicians, the fans wont have anything. and in most cases (do another poll to find out) if you don’t get moving and allowing things to change the fan will die of old age. explain to me how the envelope is being pushed? i really want to know. don’t say by tracking more stacked vocals, and write new songs that sound all the same…. all those groups you names, i have heard them and in fact shared the stage with some. and they all sound THE SAME!!!
Whitmanm said it best. whether you like it or not Musicians will and always will rule over tracks and put on a show that CAN NOT be replicated with tracks. Jumping around on stage is perfect for everyone, musician, singer, whatever. But hey you are the type of guy who has to find something to grip about. I know you more than you know…I have spend time with you before. Till then I will continue to make great music, and if i want to jump around of stage i will, and so will all the guys i work with.
the bands you mentioned are like most other bands doing the same ol, stuff in the same ol siuts, on the same ol stage. why not change things up a bit. jump around, and enjoy yourself. your playing music for a living…. what more could you ask for.
Enough said by me and Whitmanm…. Deon, you have made a fool of yourself.
I see that when you can’t defend yourself against a real argument, all you can say is that I don’t make any sense and I made a fool of myself. YOU may have met me, I don’t know, you are hiding behind a fake name, but you certainly do not know me. When it comes to making offensive and derogatory statements, I put no credence in those of a man who will not even identify himself. When you can’t win an argument, those are the things that you do.
My name is Jeremy Warren, although I wont revel who I have worked for in the SGM industry because you will more than likely be childish and keep thinking your abnormal thoughts on live bands, and may direct them to the artist. I have nothing to hide. I simply know more about this subject than you and I see where music is heading, SGM or any other. Your just a fan who don’t like to see change. I do apologize for calling you a fool.. bible said we shouldn’t do that. But you have judged where you should not. And clearly you are out numbered on your argument..
I will end my debate with you. You are someone with a narrow mind on music, and someone who is a amateur as far as someone who knows alot about SGM. It has been a waste of my time debating with you. You enjoy mediocre singing, fake smiles, and like hearing tracks and not live bands. I cant hold that against you, that just makes you ignorant, (someone who does not know better) and if you say “Again, with today’s technology and all the instruments running through the sound system, there is no difference between the sound of tracks and live musicians.” that proves your ignorants. Goodnight and may God Bless you. I hope one day you begin to see and hear what real music and musicians sound and LOOK like…....
